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Post by mosooner on Nov 27, 2019 10:20:28 GMT -6
What is really the best way to handle this? The multiplier really wasnt great, I am not sure about this Success Factor that starts next year, I see advantages and disadvantages to separating public schools from private schools....
What are your thoughts?
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Post by dew on Nov 27, 2019 13:03:22 GMT -6
Most states keep the privates separated from the publics. The multiplier would hurt Valle, and should, as Lamar rolled them not too long ago. The only public I know who can beat the privates on a consistent basis is Webb City. But look how many years and tradition building it took for that to happen. I for one believe the privates should play the privates and publics vs publics. Another reason is look at the privates who have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar in St. Louis lately. No system is perfect though.
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Post by bonehead on Nov 27, 2019 15:20:39 GMT -6
Most states keep the privates separated from the publics. Is this really true tho? I hear this said a lot and I don't really think it is reality. MoSooner you got any stats or figures on this? |
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Post by mghs on Nov 28, 2019 3:10:58 GMT -6
This data from 2014 I think Pen. is going to split it's hot topic this year according to articles.
Bama multiplier
Ark. private bumped moved up one whole class
Conn mult. in BB only
Florida separate in select sports among small schools
Georgia small school division separate private/public
Illii mult. and success movement
Ind. success movement
Maryland private/Public are split
Mich. has reverse mulitplier
Miss. has 13 private in the state association and some private schools that compete with private schools in La. and ARK in a association.
Nev. Success movement
NJ. multiple classifications for Private and Public
NY. multiple associations with different systems
SC they have a ind. association they are split,but another association they compete together
Tenn. mult.for private who provide no money aid....if aid provided private in separate class
Texas separate private from public
Virginia Separate Priv/public
All other states nothing at all. Edit another article from 2017 says 21 states use either multiplier or success rate. Oregon use a SES or socioeconomic system.Ohio a competitive balance plan
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Post by mghs on Nov 28, 2019 3:36:27 GMT -6
It's clear that most state associations have zero interest in competitive balance. They clearly sanction a decided unfair advantage to the Elite money schools. They offer up the physical and mental well being of the public school athletes to advance the interest of the Private schools and their rosters full of mercenary guns for hire that are biding their time before they play at the next level.
It is a rather disgusting display of the Adults in charge exercising their power to cater to the Private schools and their pay to play players. Then they create a uneven playing field that almost guarantee's the private schools success by putting them in the lower Class divisions.
How in the heck can you even look a student athlete in the face with this system and tell them that fair play and sportsmanship matters and is paramount? It's clear that the ends justify the means. Cheating and bending the rules is the way to success and Students see this clearly. I can't blame any student athlete who learns this lesson from a young age and put's it into practice in all aspects of life.
If as adults we are willing to allow this type of behavior and system to be trumpeted and made the norm we can expect no less from all our students to learn from it and ape that type of behavior. I find it interesting that many expect a double standard to be the Norm where in Blue Bloods can cheat and make their own rules and the common folks are shamed into following the prescribed rules that hinder their success on the field.
It is mind boggling that anyone swallows this Bunk spewed by those in charge.
I really would have no issue with doing away with the State tourney in all sports and just going back to Conference titles and calling it good at the end of the year, since the state propagandizes fair play and sportsmanship while they do the opposite.
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Post by mghs on Nov 28, 2019 4:25:02 GMT -6
The new success bases system is the biggest CON JOB ever, just look at how the private schools laud it's merits!! They hated the multiplier because it had a small effect on their unfair advantage.
So let's break down the con job that the Public school administrators bought into.
Private and Charter schools will now use raw enrollment numbers....which never forget they can manipulate as well. No multiplier...
Then points are awarded for District,Quarterfinal,semi-final and State title WIN's.
District-1pt
Qrt-2pt
Semi-final-3pt
State title 4pt
But the kicker is the points don't accumulate..so If a private wins a title it's only 4 points..1 more than a public who get's beat in the title game HMMM.
Then the real advantage is the points accumulate over a 6 year period!! What the heck? So in reality the points will hardly ever be enough to bump a school up to the next class. Other states use a 2yr or 4yr window...Not us 6 freaking years over half a decade.
But of course Lutheran st. Charles AD loves it, His name is Doug Kuhlmann and his committee Lutheran North AD Jon Mueller, Jen Brooks Ursuline,Vianney Terry Cochran and Toltons Chad Masters all private school AD who love and put forth this system...You know because it is fair for all and doesn't benefit Private schools insert eye roll. Doug K. even states they set the bar at 6yrs because statistically most private schools don't meet the sustained success over a 6 year period to move up. Yep that's correct. He just states the truth most of the private schools will never move up and now without the multiplier the Private schools have ZERO handicap at all.
So this new system is all window dressing to get back to having no system at all. It's laughable that School boards and Public School Administrators who control the schools votes .... voted 294 in favor and 133 against they are either that Stupid and lack the intellect to understand the flim flam job that was put upon them or they are dishonest and don't care about their own student athletes and are willing to let them be exposed and exploited while taking tax payer money to serve and protect them.
At this point I suspect most Administrators are dishonest and uncaring about anything other than their paychecks and most school boards are not made up of people who have the intellect or work ethic to investigate the decisions and policy's their Administrators vote on. Thus the slam dunk margin.
Sad really, makes a person wonder why Students or fans invest time in a slanted biased playoff system?
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slomo
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Post by slomo on Dec 2, 2019 9:38:55 GMT -6
It's ridiculous that schools like Lathrop and Ava are expected to compete against the Cardinal Ritters and Lutheran Norths of the world. If Ava is within 28 pts of Lutheran North when it's all said and done I will be shocked.
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Post by mghs on Dec 2, 2019 21:56:06 GMT -6
You are right LN has 5-6 possible D-1 players. Sunday night at the ORN banquet I told Dan he was already the Public school state champion!
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Post by mosooner on Dec 3, 2019 9:27:57 GMT -6
The new success bases system is the biggest CON JOB ever, just look at how the private schools laud it's merits!! They hated the multiplier because it had a small effect on their unfair advantage. So let's break down the con job that the Public school administrators bought into. Private and Charter schools will now use raw enrollment numbers....which never forget they can manipulate as well. No multiplier... Then points are awarded for District,Quarterfinal,semi-final and State title WIN's. District-1pt Qrt-2pt Semi-final-3pt State title 4pt But the kicker is the points don't accumulate..so If a private wins a title it's only 4 points..1 more than a public who get's beat in the title game HMMM. Then the real advantage is the points accumulate over a 6 year period!! What the heck? So in reality the points will hardly ever be enough to bump a school up to the next class. Other states use a 2yr or 4yr window...Not us 6 freaking years over half a decade. But of course Lutheran st. Charles AD loves it, His name is Doug Kuhlmann and his committee Lutheran North AD Jon Mueller, Jen Brooks Ursuline,Vianney Terry Cochran and Toltons Chad Masters all private school AD who love and put forth this system...You know because it is fair for all and doesn't benefit Private schools insert eye roll. Doug K. even states they set the bar at 6yrs because statistically most private schools don't meet the sustained success over a 6 year period to move up. Yep that's correct. He just states the truth most of the private schools will never move up and now without the multiplier the Private schools have ZERO handicap at all. So this new system is all window dressing to get back to having no system at all. It's laughable that School boards and Public School Administrators who control the schools votes .... voted 294 in favor and 133 against they are either that Stupid and lack the intellect to understand the flim flam job that was put upon them or they are dishonest and don't care about their own student athletes and are willing to let them be exposed and exploited while taking tax payer money to serve and protect them. At this point I suspect most Administrators are dishonest and uncaring about anything other than their paychecks and most school boards are not made up of people who have the intellect or work ethic to investigate the decisions and policy's their Administrators vote on. Thus the slam dunk margin. Sad really, makes a person wonder why Students or fans invest time in a slanted biased playoff system? The final numbers they will use are not done yet... there is a lot of speculation that your numbers are right... what seems to be the sticking point, is at what point total do they go up one class and what point do they go up two classes... Last I heard, 5 points sends you up a class and 9 points sends you up two. This will only effect PRIVATE schools. Public schools will not move up, regardless of success.... The leveling of the classes instead of making Class 5 the catchall is what I am most interested in.... It should make for some differences next year |
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Post by mosooner on Dec 3, 2019 9:39:42 GMT -6
Oklahoma was not on the list above but they do use a very weak success multiplier for private schools and it has not been effective...
I have been back and forth on the issue over the years, but I would really like to see Privates have their own Championships... during the regular season they can play anyone they want, public or private. But in the post season they have their own championships... We could almost go to 4 or, at max 5 Classes for Public schools and have two classes for privates...
just my thoughts
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slomo
Active Member
Posts: 223
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Post by slomo on Dec 3, 2019 10:43:56 GMT -6
I think even without the success multiplier a lot of privates are already getting bumped up because of the new catch all rules. Ultimately our biggest issues all come from the STL privates that are basically recruiting or building NBA style super teams. We need rules that will easily bump those schools up without also harming the SPF Catholics and KC St. Pius Xs of the world.
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dgman
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Post by dgman on Dec 4, 2019 4:27:48 GMT -6
It's ridiculous that schools like Lathrop and Ava are expected to compete against the Cardinal Ritters and Lutheran Norths of the world. If Ava is within 28 pts of Lutheran North when it's all said and done I will be shocked. Who did the Lamar tigers face during there reign at the top? I'm sure they were all public schools no doubt. Just sayin |
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slomo
Active Member
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Post by slomo on Dec 4, 2019 10:32:40 GMT -6
Yeah you're right 6 out of the 7 teams they faced were all public. For the most part C2 hasn't been dominated by privates in recent history.
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slomo
Active Member
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Post by slomo on Dec 4, 2019 10:43:56 GMT -6
You are right LN has 5-6 possible D-1 players. Sunday night at the ORN banquet I told Dan he was already the Public school state champion! Also FWIW as an aside, I don't think Ava would've beat Lathrop. |
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Post by swmissouritiger on Dec 6, 2019 10:26:30 GMT -6
Lamar defeated Lutheran North 70-7 in 2013, and 7-6 in 2017, both games during the semifinals on the road, and Trinity Catholic 26-18 in the 2016 finals. Lamar was the favorite in 2013 but were underdogs in the other two games.
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